“We’re going to have our own tank.”

Well, not if the residents of Keene, New Hampshire get their say, the police department won’t get their own tank…well….not a tank but a Grumman F8F Lenco Bearcat like the one that’s pictured above that Nashville, TN PD owns.
More than 100 people packed a Feb. 9 meeting of a city council committee, nearly all to oppose equipping the police deaprtment, with about 45 sworn officers, with a Bearcat. One speaker quoted in the Keene Sentinel was Roberta Mastrogiovanni, owner of a newsstand downtown. “It promotes violence,” Mastrogiovanni said. “We should promote more human interaction rather than militarize. I refuse to use money for something this unnecessary when so many people in our community are in need.”
Since the 1990s, the Pentagon has made military equipment available to local police departments for free or at steep discounts. This, along with drug war-related policies, has spurred a trend toward a more militarized domestic police force in America. Law enforcement and elected officials have argued for years that better-armed, high-powered police departments are needed to fight the war on drugs.
I don’t think the Bearcat influences criminals to commit crimes they might otherwise not commit, but I’d like to hear the PD’s justification for purchasing this armored vehicle. It was bought with a $285,933 grant from the Homeland Security Department, so while we’re jacking up healthcare costs for veterans and slashing our national defense capabilities, Homeland Security is handing out armored vehicles t local police departments. I wonder what has happened in Keene lately that justifies this purchase. Have the meth labs been fortified? Deer hunters getting out of control?
There’s a reason that the military can’t operate inside the US and for the same reasons we don’t need a police force that’s armed like the military.
Category: Who knows
I live on the other side of the state, in a town with similar population and crime rate.
And there’s NO. FUCKIN. WAY. I would ever see the need for the police to have this. None.
“Grumman F8F Bearcat” Wasn’t that an end of World War II fighter aircraft?
Looks like the police got themselves an RV…
When I first read the text, I was trying to figure out what the police wanted with a post WWII fighter plane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F8F_Bearcat
Jonn; Obama has said, during the campaign, that he wants a National Defense Force as large and well equipped and trained as the military. Here’s how he’s gonna get it.
boys like toys… just say no to idiocy.
Everyone is getting them. My small town back home got one and so are a lot of small communities in Southwest Virginia.
The government might not have money to provide health care for Veterans but by God we got money to give small towns armored vehicles.
http://www.galaxgazette.com/content/homeland-security-grant-buy-armored-vehicle
I’m curious how a force of 45 can find enough people that could make a SWAT team. What I expect is a bunch of guys that get together twice a month to eat donuts, shoot 50rds of ball ammo at paper and play Rainbow Six, then head to the bar with their “SWAT” and “SNIPER” tabs all over the place. Out of a military police (AF SFS) unit of 300, we were hard pressed to find 12 dudes that could field a squad of SRT–and these are 19-25 yr olds that are in good shape already.
A regional squad formed with Local LEOs, sherrifs, staties, etc, on a 2 hr string–that’s about right.
I’m fine with local LEOs carrying AR-15s in their trunks so they can neutralize an active shooter wherever and whenever. I’m okay with them having breach shields and kits to counter a Va Tech situation, but I really don’t think they need an MRAP or APC.
OT #4: There it is!
But, damn, I would like one.
Maybe Jonn can get one for TAH regulars. Got just THE place to park it too.
As a current law enforcement officer and former SWAT operator, let me give the other side of the argument, if I may. I’m sure we can all agree that he criminal element in our society are armed with some pretty serious firepower. If there is an officer or citizen down, and a barricaded subject firing from inside a building, this vehicle would be able to go in and extract wounded under fire…possibly saving lives. Also, remember the Bank of America shootout in LA several years ago? Criminals in that case were covered in body armor and armed with sophisticated weapons. A vehicle like this would have been useful. I don’t want to see the gun rights of Americans stripped away, but I don’t want the police to be outgunned or out-equipped by an ever increasingly violent criminal culture, either.
If I click on enough ads, and Jonn gets one, do I get to borrow it? There are some people whose homes I would like to go “visit” in such a vehicle.
@7 My town has a police force of 38 and that includes the administration. We’ve had it for a year now and the only time is has been used is in parades.
Badger–the last murder in Keene was NINE YEARS AGO. Not exactly a hotbed of criminal activity. Hell, my town was the one with the dipshit barracaded in Hillary Clinton’s local offices with a bunch of road flares strapped to his ass, and we didn’t need an Urban Assault Vehicle then. Just sayin.
Oh, and 3364: Looks like the police got themselves an RV…
Welcome to the party, pal! (Hey, if you can quote Die Hard, so can I. But no fair using, “Yippie-ki-yay, mothafucka…”)
Like any other weapon or other piece of potentially life-saving equipment, you only have to need it once for it to be worth it’s weight in gold.
Badger #9: I respect your opinion. Two things though.
LA is NOT Keene, NH. Or Nashville.
I don’t want to see the gun rights of Americans stripped away, but I don’t want the police to be outgunned or out-equipped by an ever increasingly violent criminal culture, either.
Key word there is Criminal isn’t it?
@8: Here ya go, Pons: http://khakicorpsimports.com/
They have Saxon APC’s as well as Ferret’s, etc.
Zero–we have much the same criminals you do down there–a few meth heads and Oxy addicts robbing banks and pharmacies, and breaking into cars to support their habits–take away that element and you’re eliminated about 2/3 the crime here (and there).
Gangs? Don’t make me laugh.
@9: Sorry, Badger, but their weapons weren’t very sophisticated; unless you consider an AK47 sophisticated?
@ Zero: Yes, the key word is criminal. That’s what we (law enforcement) are here to fight.
I never suggested otherwise.
@ Old Trooper: When compared to handguns or shotguns, I would say that an AK47 firing full auto is more sophisticated. I believe from watching the videos that one of the robbers was also armed with an HK style rifle (possibly a 91).
Keene has a BIG problem with parking enforcement. That’s about the only reason I can see that they might want this…
OT #17: You’re niggling some, me thinks. The videos make it clear that the LEOs were in LA were outgunned initially. With the help of the Feds the balance is swinging toooo far. On THAT we can easily agree.
Badger #18: And I did NOT make light of your position in anyway. Context does matter though.
@9
“Also, remember the Bank of America shootout in LA several years ago?”
Yes, I remember that, even 15 years later. You know why we all remember that? Because it was a freakish aberration. If it happened often enough to be a legitimate concern, you wouldn’t be able to make a reference to one occurrence 15 years ago and have people know exactly what you’re talking about. And even assuming that one occurrence was enough to justify a city with a population approaching 4 million equipping itself against the possibility of a repeat, I’m not sure that’s a particularly compelling argument for a town of 23,000 to do the same.
Even if you were right, and small town police departments needed armored vehicles to keep from being “outgunned or out-equipped” you need to keep in mind that government spending is a zero sum game. The $286k that the federal government spent on this is now no longer available for other purposes. It’s simply inconceivable that there was no other use Homeland Security could have come up with for those funds that wouldn’t have been more likely to save lives, including just admitting that they’ve obviously run out of things they need to buy and giving it back to the taxpayers.
@ Zero: Oh, I wasn’t trying to suggest that I thought you were making light of my position. Sorry if I gave you that impression. I was afraid that I hadn’t articulated my thoughts correctly.
We’re all friends here.
APC’s, UAV’s, hell even NYPD announced recently they have the capability to shoot down a jet plane. One doesn’t have to look too far back in history, just ask Grampa, what happens when you get a militarized police.
Badger #23: You know the ONLY reason I’m commenting on this thread is that there are NO trolls?
YET anyway? [grin]
Zero, this is one of the few sites that I get involved in discussions on, because almost everyone here is a mature, military minded individual. We know how to have polite and civilized discourse on the topics at hand and (as far as I have seen) still remain respectful and cordial with one another. I do enjoy the debates and discussions here.
AndyN – spot on. Typical government spending: “We have to buy something or they’ll take the money away – what can we get?” Blame it on Bush for floating all that money in front of the DHS folks, blame it on the Dem Congress – whatever, it’s all government buyers living in La-La land. (With apologies to Sparky – what those buyers/budgeters need is a fly in THEIR ointment, a monkey in THEIR wrench)
@19: I’m not minimizing what happened in LA, however, I can make a Ruger 10/22 full auto and I have owned an HK91 in the past. You would probably faint if you saw what me and the boys I shoot with bring out to our little range. Also, I do believe that the police need to keep up with the times and that is why my Legion post has donated thousands of dollars to our local police department, including to get their 2-man sniper team down to Florida for their first attempt at competing against other military and LEO teams a couple years ago (they came back with lots of valuable information, which you can’t put a price on), plus we donated to help them update the weapons in their cruisers to ARs. That being said; the amount of money being spent by our government to up armor as many police departments as possible, while reducing military and Vet spending, isn’t justified in my opinion. If there is a need in a metro area for such a thing, I don’t have a problem with it, but in areas that can be considered low crime, then it’s a waste of money, money that could be used elsewhere.
Typed tongue in cheek, at least the $286K can’t be spent to hire more high school dropouts to feel up grandma and the kids at the airports.
But, I agree, eventually, how does DHS spend our money once they’ve equipped every PD in the country with an armored RV? Giving it back to the taxpayers is a great idea, but I think we all know how often that happens.
Hell, GM is giving their employees $7K “profit sharing” checks, as a taxpayer, I’ve yet to see my “profit sharing” check.
UpNorth #29: Most respectfully suggest you missed the point in Jonn’s post. Got YOUR point so please consider this extra emphasis.
TAH has tracked any number of events where local LEOs have OVER-reacted and people died.
Candidly, I hope (expect,wish) that, outside of big cities, our LEO’s will balk more often than not.
I am not going to pretend to know what the life of an Police Officer is like, but isn’t a police force that is engaged with the public worth way more than 1000s of armored vehicles? This is what happens when administrators get involved with police doing police work.
Zero, I’m aware, I’ve commented on those posts. And, I don’t think I missed any point. As this wasn’t a post about LEO’s OVER-reacting, but possibly about government OVER-reacting, I responded to that. I can’t imagine a town of most any size seeing a need for this, except the proven administration reaction of “free shit, if we don’t take it, someone else will”.
I’d “suggest” that something like that be “shared” within a county…and really large departments should have something like that…they’re really handy for hitting bunkerized drug houses…but there should be plenty of military surplus in a few months.
You guys have clearly missed the point. This is a case of this is uber cool, someone will get it for me, and I WANT IT. Women often have these issues with shoes.
That said; I want one. I think it would be Uber Cool thing to park in the drive to intimidate my neighbors into submission. Unfortunately, no one will buy me one!
Susan, my wife is also an attorney and she also likes really cool military vehicles and firepower, so I get what you are saying. This town wants a super cool pair of Jimmy Choos also…
Hmmm. One would look REALLY good in my garage!
Looks to me like just another case of RV envy – as in “who’s is bigger”. (smile)
Badger…come on man, I’m al, for you guys having all the bells and whistles but this thing is over kill. How about sending some guys to a top flight shooting school….for Keene this is overkill.
I gotta agree with the ‘over kill’ side. Fifteen yrs ago Sheriff Joe bought or stole or borrowed an APC looking buggy with a battering ram. It’s never been used, now it’s not even in parades!? About the same time he found a .50 cal and you guessed it, it’s never been used. Maricopa county has a population of 3,750,000+, not exactly Podunk. Yet there hasn’t been a need for this equipment.
@39 Yasyas, he got it becasue he could. I saw that thing on the I-17 heading south once time and was like ‘WTF is that!!!” and then I saw the MCSO logo and thought “Oh man. There goes Joe blowing tax dollars again.”
How much is upkeep and maintance? How many LEOs could be on the street for the price of these things?
ANCCPT, Exactly! Like.that $400k bus to haul inmates all of five miles to the county court house. why don’t we run a spur of the light rail from Central Station to Tent City? That would only run $3,000,000,000,000!
@41- exactly, Joe. That fucker weighs quite a bit. The diesel driving that thing is always under considerable load. The suspension system likewise. My guess is it’ll make parades for a few years, then be sitting broken in the lot, because the PD doesn’t have an extra man’s weight in salary laying around in order to perform the maintenance required to keep it running.
Badger. You refer to yourself as an “operator” one more time I’m going to be very upset. No cop is an operator. Even former…REAL operators on HRT do not refer to themselves as that. If you are a member of only two military groups…you are then and only then ….that. the term has become so water logged it makes the titanic look fresh. Any other piggies on here that call themselves operators with your superior attitudes can sit on one. Bitches please.
It’s the new normal. During the Clinton years, military hardware was sold and given to LEO’s because “our kids are outgunning our cops.”
9/11, Hope and Change…same old song and dance. Police departments are becoming more paramilitary. Bloomberg even refereed to the NYPD as his own “army.”
Strange how liberals hate the troops yet arm the police to the teeth.
SWAT is overused, why does a police force in LA need a MK19 AND a M240? (“Sons of Guns” built them mounts for their boat)
Crime is actually going down. Shootouts only happen in Hollywood or leftist fantasies.
Really, chock? Then this didn’t happen? It wasn’t Hollywood or a “leftist fantasy”. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/10/police_confirm_walker_officer.html
Strange how Hollywood DID come up with the huge “bank shootout” scene before reality caught up.
@45
No Hollywierd about it, shootouts happen with depressing frequency here in Arizona, especially down around the drug/human trafficking corridors in the southern third of the state.
That being said, the addition of a vehicle like this to most small rural departments is going to have about zero impact on anything.
@#48, “That being said, the addition of a vehicle like this to most small rural departments is going to have about zero impact on anything”. Totally agree. Like I said, it’s about getting something for “nothing” because, if they don’t, someone else will.
Up–$300K is a helluva lot of money to pay for the world’s largest paperweight.
Of course, community policing would have been a LOT more effective in preventing this (or at least catching them sooner) in Keene:
http://www.wmur.com/news/30474239/detail.html
Three-month old baby with BOTH legs broken, fractured ribs, and fractured skull. Fucking heartbreaking. Yeah, an Urban Assault Vehicle would really have helped in this case.
And finally, Badger, to be fair, the most “potentially life-saving equipment” any police officer has is between their ears. Rely on that more than a freakin tank–I sure would.